And how about Bush saying the mess he created in iraq will be a "comma" in history? ("I like to tell people when the final history is written on Iraq, it will look like just a comma because there is - my point is, there's a strong will for democracy." --- Bush to CNN in Sept.)

Wow, that's really honoring the troops and their sacrifices!

What did that fat pillpopper Limbaugh or Pretty Boy Hannity (who would be in the Long Island National Guard if he REALLY supported the war) have to say about that?

They had to launch onto something, so they could recover from the Mark repedophile thing.

You said a mouthful. Just wish Kerry hadn't given them the ammo. It was fun watching the "Family Values protectors of our morals" party defend their protection of an internet predator. My favorite quote was Newt on Meet the Press the day Sunday after the story broke when he stated that if they had done anything about it they would have been accused of being gay bashers. Now THAT was funny!

You know, as we sit here and harrangue a failed Pres. candidate for opening his mouth (a Kerry problem) no one even asks the Administration why our troops were sent into battle without appropriate body armor (the question that Rummie gaffed the answer to). Talk about disrespecting the troops. Commit them to a war with a failed strategy, undermanned (by many "former" Generals estimates), underequiped, and no defined goals. Now that's "respect for our troops."

Everyone still hammers Kerry for his "first I voted for it, then against it." Well if they would have taken the time to understand it, they would know the facts. This was supplemental $80 billion for BODY ARMOR because our most hearalded SecDef sent our troops to war without it. When Kerry voted "for it," it had a funding mechanism. Then when it came up for final vote, the funding mechanism had been removed and they had actually added a tax cut to the bill. So he voted against it. He was only demanding that if we are going fork out $80 billion taxpayer dollars, that they find a way to fund it. But certainly we don't add a tax cut to it. For this, holding the Republican Congress to reasonable fiscal practice, he was and still is being denigrated.
Problem with Kerry is he can't explain himself well.
Oh well, he was not a good choice in 2004 because he carries too much baggage. This latest gaff will simply send him home.
Meanwhile over 2800 young Americans killed. Think our "military loving" Republicans will ever notice? Doesn't appear so.

Good to know that we "never had a stay the course" strategy though. Does make one wonder exactly what the strategy is. Oh, that's right, keep control of the Congress.

The gift that keeps on giving.

Rove could not have dreamed of this in his wildest flights of fancy.

If this is something orchestrated by the Repubicans, either Kerry is a double agent or the Republicans have supernatural powers. Maybe it has something to do with all that praying going on in the White House these days. No one could be this "lucky".

I know I'll regret this, but I do take exception to the attitude and belief that "all Democrats are anit-military." As a Democrat and a retired officer with a son serving I find that a bit outrageous. That aside, and please believe I am not defending Kerry's idiocy, but you refer to Kerry's testimony to Congress in 1972. Have you ever actually read the transcript? If not, here is a link to the transcript. It is printed by National Review (a conservative publication) so you can't call it "liberal media." My point is that in reality Kerry said he had testimony where Vietnam Vets had personally witnessed or participated in these attrocities. That actually is a true statement. They were there and did say that. I don't know his personal viewpoint and don't care. He is old news. But while Kerry was in Vietnam, Cheney was simply "too busy" to serve, and Bush was ditching out of the Guard. Folks, Vietnam has been over for 30 years. It has nothing to do with Iraq. I love our military. I encouraged my son to go in and he is serving with distinction. But how can it be "supportive of the military" if we send them into this absurd quagmire as in Iraq. No goals, no mission, just acting as police and nation builders. The very thing Bush PROMISED he wouldn't use our military for in 2000. By the way, before we start with the "terrorist" thing, Saddam outlawed Al Queda in Iraq because he feared them. No WMD's. No Nukes. The NIE states that the threat of terrorism actually INCREASED due to Iraq. Bush blew it because he didn't listen to Colin Powell (the only real military in the cabinet) or his Generals. He didn't do a thorough job of analyzing ALL the intelligence available, and he rushed into it. Now they say the Democrats running for office have "no plan" to end the war. Funny, I always thought war planning fell to the Administration and Military, not to individual Congressmen.

Just my two cents. Here is the National Review link:

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp

Respect your service and that of your son. I believe many Democrats really do support thr troops like Lieberman, Zell Miller etc.

Many of the "veterans involved with the whole "Winter Soldier" and "Vietnam Veterans Against the War" were found to be frauds. Yes there were atroscities such as Lt. Calley, but not to the extent that Kerry was alleging. They even discussed assasinating a US Senator, Kerry may even have been in that meeting.

Too bad the Republicans that did not serve were matched by many Dems such as Bill Clinton and Howard "Bad back ski bum" Dean. Your right, what happened 30 plus years ago isn't relevant today except that Kerry plays the Veteran card like some play the race card.

I disagree about "an absurd quagmire", I think more harm is done by the media and Dems undermining the war effort. Our enemies love it because they hope for a Vietnam like ending.

9/11 changed everything. When Clinton interviened in Hati and Kosovo, there was no attack on US soil.

There were Terrorists cells and WMD labs in northern Iraq.

The rest of the NIE states that leaving Iraq to the terroists will be worse and their defeat would make us safer.

"ALL the intelligence available" British, US, Israeli and UN said There were WMDs.

The comments made by ArmyMajRetired about the Winter Soldier testimony before Congress being made by "fraudulent" veterans are simply not true.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409030004

There has not been a single documented repudiation of ANY of the 109 Vietnam veterans who testified before Congress, the major's claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

I challenge the major to prove me wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier

Here are a few examples, BTW several vets whose names were used swore they never attended.

http://qando.net/archives/002160.htm

To reveal the depth of dishonesty present, Al Hubbard, one of the founders of the VVAW and its Executive Secretary, claimed to be an Air Force pilot, wounded in Viet Nam. In fact, Hubbard was never an officer, never wounded and never in Viet Nam. VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling.

www.wintersoldier.com

Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

" But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name."

In Yesterday's Lies: Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers, Scott Swett tells the story of a former VVAW member and participant in the Winter Soldier Investigation who has now filed an affidavit stating that John Kerry and others pressured him to give false testimony about American atrocities in Vietnam.

Also read:

Stolen Valor : How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History (Hardcover)

by B. G. Burkett, Glenna Whitley

P.P.S.

An FBI field surveillance report dated November 24, 1971 details Al Hubbard's presentation to a VVAW meeting of the Executive and Steering committees in Kansas City, Missouri, during the weekend of November 12-15, 1971 –- the same meeting at which the VVAW considered, then rejected a plan to assassinate several pro-war US Senators. John Kerry is listed as present. Once again, Al Hubbard made clear the communist coordination involved in his recent trip to Paris:

Excuse me Major, I believe we are mixing apples and oranges here.

I challenged you to provide me with documentation that any of the 109 soldiers and sailors and Marines who testified under oath to Congress during the Winter Soldier hearings were somehow later discredited.

You responded back with a list of people who were involved with VVAW who weren't who they said they were. That's not what I asked for. (BTW, I was aware of Al Hubbard, and I make no defense for him. He's a bad apple).

To my knowledge, NONE of the Winter Soldier testimony has ever been disproved by documented research and my challenge to you remains.

You are right, a stellar organization with those proven liars would never tolerate liars. You forgot to mention the "Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser" Phoenix Program liars. Those were just the ones caught.

One lied and admitted it:

In Yesterday's Lies: Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers, Scott Swett tells the story of a former VVAW member and participant in the Winter Soldier Investigation who has now filed an affidavit stating that John Kerry and others pressured him to give false testimony about American atrocities in Vietnam.

Bottom line, they had an agenda and played fast and loose with the facts. Since the NIS report is missing in action there is no smoking gun.

I'm fully aware of Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser. None of them testified under oath at the Winter Soldier hearings. Let's try and stay on topic.

As far as Steve Pitkin goes, in my first article I linked to there is a section about Steve Pitkin. He testified under oath to Congress about atrocities. Thirty three years later, at the request of the Swift Boat group devoted to trashing John Kerry, he swore under oath that he was coerced into testifying about atrocities. A fellow participant, Scott Camil, refuted Pitkin's claims under oath, noting that Pitkin had dates, places and names wrong. Pitkin then withdrew his affidavit and submitted a SECOND affidavit with "corrected" names, places and dates. Pitkin appears to be one very confused individual.

So, to date, you've got one confused soldier who cannot remember who he talked to, when he talked to them and where he talked to them. He also doesn't remember when he was discharged. I tell you what, that's a judgement call, but in the spirit of comradely fraternity, I'll give you that one.

One.

There were 109 veterans who testified at the Winter Soldier hearings, Major. You've repudiated one. As the great philosopher Donnie Osmond once said, "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl!"

So Kerry planned to assassinate senators, never served in Viet Nam honorably, never got wounded, threw away his medals, and criticized the Viet Nam war? So what? We didn't elect him, did we? He also saw the falacy of the Viet Nam war.

You said a mouthful. I agree with what you said about Kerry and his testimony to Congress. My whole point is that what so many said he said is not exactly true. But the problem we have today is the whole fear tactic of the Administration. We can argue the wisdom of the Iraqi invasion until we are blue in the face. But I will not likely be convinced that it was well thought out or well planned. But you have the Repubs out there claiming that all Dems are "cut and runners." Simply not true. Most Dems agree that we can't cut and run. You have Repubs out there saying that all Dems are anit-military. Simply not true. You have many Dems who served honorably. This is a particularly evil election season. I do not vote party line. I think many of the Dem goals are misguided. But the result of an all Repub government has, in my opinion, been dreadful. Unchecked deficit, an ugly war which is certainly questionable, an unsuccessful strategy to bring in Bin Laden, oil prices that have skyrocketed, a diminishing middle class, etc. And worse of all we have a rubber-stamp Congress who has failed in it's charge of acting as a check and balance to a way too powerful administration.
As to intelligence, I realize it was sketchy, but by all reports there was certainly enough questionable intelligence out there to suggest a very conservative move toward war.
Here's a question for you. Do you accept Bush when he stated on Oct. 22 "Listen, we've never been stay the course....?" How do you feel about that statement? Does this inspire confidence in your President?
Now before you come back with "what about Clinton or Kerry" etc. recognize that only Bush is Pres.
These aren't "in your face" questions, I am serious. I just don't get how people can continue to support an administration that has made so many mistakes but failed to take accountability for any of them.
Some more questions. As a military man, do you think this war is going well? Is the current strategy sound? Do we have goals for our military to obtain? If it isn't a "quagmire," when can we expect it to end? How do we keep hateful waring factions from falling to civil war and how can we expect them to actually elect a leader under a democratic form of government? Will my 18 mo. old grandson be fighting in Iraq in 20 years? Since the Repubs say the Dems have no strategy, and Bush says he was "never stay the course," exactly what is the Repub strategy? In fact it do you think it appropriate for a political party NOT running for President to develop a foriegn policy? Isn't foriegn policy, conduct of war, etc. a function of the Administration and Commander in Chief? If so, then why would a candidate for Congress dare be so arrogant as to have a "strategy" to end a war?
Take care, I am sure we will be doing this for a while.

He wanted to bring attention to just who is fighting the war on the ground. No one is stupid enough to think that West Point and other college graduates are kids who can't learn! What he is pointing out is that many kids, don't kbnow the percentage--but it is is significant--join the military when they don't have much other choice. They need a job and some money and some direction. Most of this group have just a high school education, a GED, or are from schools that award high school diplomas to anyone who attends. The majority of them however in the military are just plain folks just like you or I. However, the point is this: the military enlisted group, in particular--but not 100%--are not typical of our population. There are no congressional sons, no lawyer's sons, no doctor's sons, few wealthy son's. It gives the appearance of the privileged avoiding the gun and getting crippled. If we are going to fight alll of the time, we need a 100% draft, with no exceptions.

Now, I retired at the end of 1996, so some things may have changed, but NOT enough to support your call for a draft! The reason for the high morale and esprit is because everyone VOLUNTEERED. Many for oppportunty, including College benefits. 98% of enlisted service members have a H.S. diploma vs. the general population of 75%!

Our troops are representative of society, how many "congressional sons, lawyer's sons, doctor's sons, or wealthy sons do you know? In my 153 person company there are NONE!

I served at the Defense Language Institute, where enlisted linguists scored probably in the top 20% of their civilian peers.

"join the military when they don't have much other choice." Prove it, provide a link to your source!

Kerry is not stupid, he is a pompous, arrogant, elitist idiot. Way to treat the new "Band of Brothers" you remember, those guys you said were terrorizing Iraqi women and children in the dark of night!

Pathetic!

P.S.

"If we are going to fight", do you have a mouse in your pocket or did you recently enlist?

Her is a link to my FACTS!

Who Are the Recruits? The Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Enlistment, 2003–2005
by Tim Kane, Ph.D.
Center for Data Analysis Report #06-09
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm

I agree with you - dummies cannot lead our military. Kerry just put his foot right down to his colon. I have met many Armed Forces personnel whom have the IQ of genius. There is such a thing as "love for your country." I had the honor of working with a marvelous man by the name of Col.Bobbie J. Cavnar, who was not only a genius, but was loving, courageous and had his priorties in order: God, family and country. If you would like to take a glimpse of the life of this man, click on http://www.lumen2000.com/twh/, then click on Bobbie J. Cavnar. I know you will enjoy this.

I salute you for speaking your mind, and Kerry should fry for his disrespect to our service men and women. By the way, my husband was in the Army before we met, and ended up as a top man at SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe - in Belgium) for those who do not kow the acronym. Not bad for a dummy! He eventually became even smarter once he married me!

Many, if not most people would agree with nearly everything you said. They do have heroes, geniuses, and highly successful people.
But you totally ignored the very core of the complaint by changing the subject to another category of military personnel!
We are not talking about officers who serve at SHAPE, nor old heroes.
We are trying to cover up the fact that unfortunates are the ones who make up the vast quantity of dead and croppled in this stupid war.

As a mom of an 18 yr old male, I certainly feel deeply for our young people in our military that unfortunately pick the short straw. I know many young people who have dreamed about joining the military since their childhood. Right now, I'm dealing with a wonderful friend, whose daughter has just enlisted. She doesn't know what the future will bring to her little girl! Nonetheless, there is no draft at the moment, and these young people are making these choices. They know there is a war going on, so why go in the Armed Forces. Some kids have very legit reasons: they can't afford an education otherwise, need a job or a skill or even some discipline. Surprisingly, the majority of the youth that enlists have either a GED or have completed High School, according to statistics. I don't think anyone is trying to cover up who the victims are. No one chooses to die: neither the young nor the old. This is history repeating itself with WWII (my father-in-law was only a kid himself when he was in the Bulge), the Korean War and Nam. In a war there is never a winner, but let's not downplay Kerry's remark or the fact that the youth that enlists are taking the chance of being sent to a hardship post.

Did you read the lnked article that I posted?

Here it is in a nutshell, lest Basmati scream plagarism.

"The current findings show that the demo­graphic characteristics of volunteers have contin­ued to show signs of higher, not lower, quality."

" Our review of Pen­tagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005."

"In summary, the additional years of recruit data (2004–2005) sup­port the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population. The slight dif­ferences are that wartime U.S. mil­itary enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on aver­age than their civilian peers."

"The previous study noted the significant differ­ence between the national recruit high school grad­uation rate of 98 percent and the national youth graduation rate of 75 percent. This strong distinc­tion continues among the 2004 and 2005 recruits when compared to the national educational attain­ment levels reported by the Census 2004 American Community Survey"

"Additionally, in the most recent edition of Population Representation in the Military Services, the Department of Defense reported that the mean reading level of 2004 recruits is a full grade level higher than that of the comparable youth population."

"The November 2005 Heritage Foundation study found that recruits enlisting at the start of the war were of high quality and in many respects comparable to the youth population. This updated report’s examination of three years of wartime recruits shows that recruit quality has not declined."

"The estimate for mean household income of recruits increased every year from 2003 through 2005. The poorest areas continue to be underrep­resented, while middle-class areas are overrepre­sented."

Where is your data to back up your OPINION?

I wouldn't use them.
You are one of the cover up the facts people, aren't you? Hell man, we have large quantities of service families on food stamps and other assistance!
The point is that we ARE allowing the unfortunate to fight this stupid war. The career officers need them to progress. The oil companies need them to protect their interests. Wake up and change direction! You don't have to go back and keep your mouth shut now.

There were 6300 military families receiving food stamps in 1999, down from 12,000 in 1995. http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/moneymatters/a/foodstamps.htm

Thank you dollaradayandfound for serving our country.

Name one fact that I covered up dipstick.

What number of service members qualify for assistance? What percentage, how do you know or are you making this stuff up?

We are allowing the unfortunate to blog and talk about something that they have no knowledge of.

Career officers don't need them to progress, this country needs them to apply power, read Clausewitz sometime.

The oil in Iraq belongs to the Iraqis, get a new argument.

I don't know what the hell you mean in your last sentance, but the rest of it made no sense anyway so at least you are consistant.

Try backing up your statements and arguments with sources beside what you sit on, by the way it's time to pull your head out of it.

Most of us civilians read something occasionally besides army regulations and some numbskull's link. Michael Moore has a "link," read that.
Glad to hear that career officers don't need soldiers to progress. That was the condition the army was in on December 6, 1941, wasn't it?
If the oil they "say" is being pumped in Iraq belongs to Iraq, why aren't they paying their own way as they did under Saddam? It is all bull, and a lot of secrets about the oil money. Why do they need our trillion dollars, also?
The last sentence means: You, major do not have to go back to duty in Iraq (were you there?) and then just do what the regs say and your bosses. I don't have to do that for the "dummy." I was a career military type for four years, 1950-1954, and saw the light! Don't keep defending this horrible administration and lets do what we can to get rid of them, please.

Food stamps don't exist any more; however, some troops do qualify for 'assistance' due to low pay.

I'm not one to make the chicken and the egg argument - but - they are economically disadvantaged because of what we pay them - not because they are stupid.

So, do you agree with John Kerry's remark or not?

Was he trying to tell a joke?

Just keeping it stirred up-
MainFrame

Percentage of enlistees:(ages 17 - 21, men and woman) not old enough to have graduated from collage yet.

Army, 71.04%
Navy, 79.49%
Marine Corps, 89.69%

Table B-1. FY 2004 NPS Active Component Enlisted Accessions by Age, Service, and Gender with Civilian Comparison Group, 2004 data
Source

Main page

in decades.

Churchill flunked nearly everything, he was dense when young. The grades at places like Yale and Harvard depend greatly upon how many tutors you can afford. Bush didn't even learn to speak and rote properly. He was taught to use people to get what you want. Kerry also has some of the same problems but he did decide to put in his time in the line of fire.

'Dude' - I am not sure what you are on...you seem to have pot-ential;however, you need to let go of the 'drug' references and clean up your act. You might find that you are actually a conservative if you stop doing drugs long enough to clear your head!

Stop smoking the pot-
MainFrameCpr

Welcome back to the battle field Oldschool. I knew you wouldn't be able to resist the familiar smell of sulfer and gun gasses. I truly would like the opportunity to sit down with you; at a ball game, coffee shop, park, whatever. King06@aol.com if you are interested. Or kevin.king@vance.af.mil. I've been looking for a workout with right onthe money, but he hasn't emailed back. Please give him my email address if you're in touch. And, mainframe, email me. I've got amsterdam pictures you'll feel good about.

Cheers,

Kevin Hack King

Does that mean you agree or disagree that John Kerry is a pompous @$$?

Can I say that on here?

I don't discuss politics or religion. I love to listen and read other's opinions though.

We ain't gonno let you chunk gas on the fire without walking away a little toasted.

Go get 'em Git Real!

Take That!

I don't even know how to Sorry Git real!

When you use the bracket thingys with strong between them.....

START BOLD

STOP BOLD

I put spaces in there for demo purposes only. Start the bold with the brackets with the word strong. At the end of your sentence stop the bold by using the brackets with /strong between them. No spaces. Hope that helps. It took me a while to learn it to.

If you need some help putting your computers together just give me a holler. I'm sleeping at the the Holiday Inn Express tonight.

Just kidding...hope that helps.

What are you talking about? Wow it worked!

Thanks, GR

When I can tell them how to build a computer but can't pogram one.....

You're a smart man too