Sniffles' Jail-Time Question: One Last Time Around

muddle's picture

It's just the wrong question to ask.

[Warning: What was intended as a brief comment kind of got away from me. It's late. I'm sitting in a hospital room, not quite ready for sleep. Here's the result. Rough waters ahead.]

Suppose you encounter a pro-life apologist--call him Goober--who argues as follows:

1. Everything that has property P has a right to life.
2. Unborn babies have property P.
3. Therefore, unborn babies have a right to life.

Now, this was all Goober wanted to argue. To challenge Goober's argument, you've got basically two options: (A)argue that one or both premises are false. (Maybe some things with P do not have rights after all. Or maybe unborn babies do not have P.) Or (B) you can challenge the validity of the argument, claiming that (3) does not follow from (1) and (2). (Except, as I hope you see, it does.)

Let's just suppose that you don't have a good answer to Goober's argument. Gosh, it looks as though it's just TRUE that everything with P has a right to life! And it also seems to be an empirical fact that even the unborn have P! And the argument takes a valid form. So we're stuck with (3): Unborn babies have a right to life.

As I noted before, the stuff about the legality of abortion is entailed by claims about fetal rights. (Because society ought to defend any and all rights, and such defense requires laws.) Like it or not, it comes as a part of the package.

And, as you observe, laws are enforced by threat of punishment.

So wherever there are rights there are potential threats of punishment.

I'll say it differently:

Rights entail potential threats of punishment.

Or...

Potential threats of punishment are a necessary condition for the existence of rights.

Do you now have a new inroad into critiquing Goober's argument if you simply keep going by adding some plausible premsies?

4. If unborn babies have a right to life, then there must be laws to protect that right.
5. If there are laws to protect the unborn right to life, then there are potential threats of punishment.
6. If there are potential threats of punishment, then women seeking or having abortions should be subject to such punishments.
7. So, If unborn babies have a right to life, then women seeking or having abortions should be subject to punishment.

But then you appeal to wide sentiment (including MY sentiment):

8. It is not the case that women seeking or having abortions should be subject to punishment.

Clearly, 7 and 8 together entail

9. It is not the case that unborn babies have a right to life.

Ah! I've just handed you an argument! But hold on.

9 can be true only if either 1 or 2 is false. And now we've got this result--YOUR result--of the argument that you've been trying to push with your question.

10. If it is not the case that women seeking or having abortions should be punished, then either it is false that everything that has P has a right to life, or it is false that unborn babies have P.

But, clearly, our sentiments about how women ought to be treated has absolutely NOTHING to do with the truth of premises 1 and 2. It would be the height of confusion to suppose that you could assess the original argument in this way. SO (10) is false. But (10) follows from all of the premises that we've accepted, beginning with the argument of (1-3) along with some premises about connections between rights, laws and punishment, along with premise 8 (women should be subject to punishment) is what gave us the results. Sumpin's got to go.

Your choices are these:

a. SHow where the problem lies in Goober's argument of 1-3. Argue directly for the falseness of one of the first two premises.
b. Deny the rights-laws-punishment connection (as presented in 4 and 5). (This amounts either to denying that there is a societal duty to defend individual rights, or that such defense does not require laws, or that the enforcement of those laws does not require punishment.)
c. Deny that IF there should be such punishments, then the WOMEN would be the likely suspects to be hauled in.
d. Accept that IF there are such punishments then women would be the likely suspects, but give up the wide sentiment expressed in 9. (Bite the bullet: College girls doing hard time.)

My point is just that, FOR YOU, there is no substitute for (a). And anyone who thinks that the argument of 1-3 holds good, and who also thinks that there is a rights-laws-punishment connection, has the option of rejecting either 6 or 9. I think the pro-lifer's best bet is to challenge 6, which, if you'll notice, is the fairly common pro-life reply to such a question.

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sniffles5's picture
Submitted by sniffles5 on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 1:11pm.

I believe you are overcomplicating the issue.

I framed my question within a legal construct. "Fetal rights" and other solipsisms are irrelevant to the discussion.

In a nutshell:
1. If something is defined as a Crime, by definition it falls under the purview of Criminal Law Agree or Disagree?
2. Criminal Law specifies a Punishment as a remedy for a specific Crime Agree or Disagree?
3. Therefore, by definition a person committing a crime should be subject to appropriate punishment Agree or Disagree?

Assume then that abortion has been made illegal.
A woman who seeks and receives an abortion has committed a crime
Criminal law states that the criminal should be subjected to punishment
What should that punishment be?

Misdemeanor? Felony? You tell me.

Probation?
House arrest?
Jail time?
Prison time?
Execution?

Or do you insist on carving out some brand new legal concept where everyone involved in the "crime" (doctor, nurse, anethetist, guy who drove woman to abortion clinic) is subject to penalty but the woman who initiated the "crime" is not subject to any penalty? If so, can you point out any other crime where "punish the conspirators, not the mastermind" applies?
_______________________________________________________
The Question They Will NOT Answer:How Much Jail Time?


Submitted by Davids mom on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 12:10pm.

6. If there are potential threats of punishment, then women seeking or having abortions should be subject to such punishments.

. . . and if women seeking or having abortions should be subject to such punishments - why aren't men seeking vasectomies subject to the same punishment? An abortion would not be necessary if all men had vasectomies - but heavens - that would really be the end of mankind. Where are we going with this?

muddle's picture
Submitted by muddle on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 12:42pm.

I'm not sure how you are reading me.

My own view is that (6) is false. Sniffles' question had embedded within in it an argument to the effect that pro-life advocates are really stuck with (6), but that (6) is implausible. My overall (admittedly complicated) argument was that the rights issue is the most basic, that it implies laws, that these, in turn, imply potential punishments. What is not necessarily implied, however, is that it is the woman who is the proper subject of such punishment--that point was urged by Sniffles in his "crime without a criminal?" point.

So the basic reply is that we're not going anywhere with this.

But, of course, there is a fundamental biological difference between preventing fertilization and aborting a forming embryo. Perhaps pro-lfers are mistaken in thinking that a "blastocyst" is the sort of thing to which rights may meaningfully be attributed, but they are not mistaken in noting that after conception we have something significantly new: the complete programming essential for the development of a new and unique human person.

-----------------

"The Muddles"


eodnnaenaj1's picture
Submitted by eodnnaenaj1 on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 3:36pm.

If this double posts I apologize.

Mere babes, I thought y'all were grandparents! Shoot we all should look so good.

Hope the Mrs. is better and rolling right along on that road to recovery. You both have been lifted up more than usual here lately, hope you both are doing fine.


Submitted by Davids mom on Thu, 01/31/2008 - 12:53pm.

Thanks for the clarification - I read you wrong. (I love the signature - The Muddles!!)

Submitted by CuriousBob on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 6:52am.

All P are S but, some S are P!

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